Tim Montgomerie versus Daniel Kawczynski

They say it's a foreign ministers are meeting in Brussels to discuss how the alliance can maintain peace and stability at a time of increasing tension with Moscow. On the agenda will be not shiny Russian involvement in Ukraine but also the buildup of missiles and troops along Europe's eastern border ahead of today's session NATO secretary general Jens Stoltenberg suggested if both sides to tone down their rhetoric it might take some of the heat out of the situation let's hear what he had to say.

Tim Montgomerie versus Daniel Kawczynski

Are the welcome and need toning down over the rhetoric because I think a word so matters and the. Less aggressive rhetoric and come be a first step towards also better dialogue. At the same time what's. Don't words matters about of course the deeds umap there's even more. So therefore that the important thing is what you see you look on actions we see from the Russian aside. Jens Stoltenberg and we're joined now by the conservative MP Daniel Kaczynski who sits on the foreign affairs committee welcome to the daily politics custom although Tim Montgomery there is evidently concern amongst the Baltic states understandably because of where they are geographically about the Russian threat. Is any talk of a new Cold War exaggeration.


I don't think so if you look at some of Russia's tactics that they're deploying in the region how they used. Undercut the troops to invade Easton you cry and how they are involved in. Stabilizing democracies around around the world their interference confirmed by intelligence agencies in America in the U. S. election involved in the wikileaks. And prophecy over Hillary Clinton's emails. On a whole range of fronts. Russia is reverting to the behavior that comes not true it's about admit Putin Vladimir Putin was trained as a KGB agents and I'm afraid you can't always teach an old dog new tricks he still behaving as he did in the past yes and how do you deal with a pout that behaves in that way there is no evidence to back up that Vladimir Putin is moving towards some sort of cool deal relationship with Europe for example what I think he instilled in both the clip that you played from UN Stoltenberg is extremely important.

I had met him we met at the foreign affairs select committee met with him at the European Parliament recently. And I asked him how are you going to a secretary general of NATO how you how are you going to lower tensions with Russia. And he talked to us about his experience when he was prime minister of Norway a NATO country which borders Russia he had in that position as prime minister of fat no way very pragmatic in a very effective policy Ove dealing with Russia on a bilateral basis and I very much hope that he will use that experience to try to lower tensions with Russia so he himself has said it's vitally important that despite the differences we have with them. We want to ease some of the tension that's building up is it more than just differences on a bilateral with Norway is one thing but actually dealings with Russia on a whole range of issues when it's on maneuvers abroad it's moving missiles closer to Europe's eastern border it's watching cyber attacks seeking to influence elections in the U. S. an inference.

Makes it more difficult what I wince this summer to the Polish Russian border and that is already becoming the most highly militarized part of Europe right if the **** for tat deployment of missiles continues at the pace it has been of that area of Europe will become akin to the north and south Korean border a no man's land and it's going to be it will just take a Spock to cause some sort of confrontation between these 2 sides yes be strong and tough with them yes spend more on defense. But we need to engage with them. Try to build up some sort of mutual trust and respect otherwise we are heading toward some sort of confrontation painting rushers the baking on all the time and talking about the Cold War went that escalate tensions would a different tone really in your mind change the balance of relations I think I'm done you officially I think represents Shrewsbury in parliament but he has more of a record I'm afraid for representing Riyadh in Saudi Arabia in Moscow in Russia has always been a spokesman an apologist for for these regimes and his recipe of appeasement that he would like us to Pacific has actually been the recipe that Barack Obama sausage with if you remember he withdrew the missile defense shield that America promise for the Czech Republic and Poland his sector of state Hillary Clinton and reset relations with Russia the whole message to Russia was exactly as Daniel has recommended we sort of accommodate ourselves to Putin's aggressiveness. Since then what Putin sold out was as a green light he saw weakness.

And he invaded Ukraine invaded Crimea he blanket bombs Aleppo and I'm afraid the kind of recipe. But Daniel always wants us to recommend to follow in the west to be kinder and more indulgent to dictatorships. Is exactly the sort of thing that inflames aggression and. It endangers peace rather than the reverse you're an apologist for dictator well this is this is what miss the likes of Mister mom command of those in the other neocons I'm I I was called the E. last weekend by a right wing think tank in America a Trojan horse for the Kremlin if if we did if members of parliament to tough Thailand to into this very popular narrative which is peddled by Mister Montgomery and others witches these regimes are bad they have to be ostracized they have to be kept away they are going to a cause problems if anybody dares challenge that very popular and fashionable concept as to whether or not it is in our country's national strategic interest completely ostracize these countries and not to have dialogue with them know one thing can challenge criminals generalizing that I'm usually on it somehow you shouldn't do we represent in the midst of your critique is his view that the federal.

His views are highly dangerous all they got it and we need to engage them in all your views holidays the sense is what he's your alternative solution to dealing with Russia is it containment. Well I think what we certainly have to be doing now is the alternative to not to the kind of militarization on the borders that Dino describes is allowing Russia to bring in that people in the green berets and hidden the century Russian troops to destabilize countries like Estonia if we do not make it absolutely clear to Russia that will be enormous consequences for them destabilizing other parts of the world what we will get from Putin is more of the kind of indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations that we've seen in Aleppo Aleppo wasn't the first time of course the Putin bomb civilian populations. Before he came to power as Russian president in Chechnya that is how he behaved he is a very nasty piece of work and when we have an apologist light down youthful him then we are and that we were inviting further aggression eyes you have dialed you do not have indulgent can I say that I will take any lectures from Mister Montgomery on this is. I'm the only British member of parliament to have been born in Poland. To have come from Poland I spent my childhood listening.

To my grandfather about the. Catastrophic destruction of Poland during the second World War war sold being razed to the ground. And that button left a huge indelible imprint on my mind and all I want to do he calls me an apologist or I'm interested in. Is making sure.

That those frontline states that we are lying to countries like Poland on not destroyed and devastated in another World War and what is as I've said to you what is happening on the Kaliningrad oblast with the Polish border is frightening and anybody who doesn't understand the concerns of that trajectory of conflict it is wrong and majesty lastly a lot of people actually if you talk to people on the ground whether it since Roseville anywhere else they expect politicians to go the extra mile to engage and to go do whatever they can get rid of Israel has yet 11 says that on occasions he that that has worked.

That's understandable when hot with a hatchet attempts at dialogue and they have been rejected in many people's minds by Vladimir Putin himself that he is only worried about his sphere of influence and that he feels under threat from the E. U. and that that is why he annexed Crimea that is why he got himself involved in managing cousin in eastern Ukraine there is no evidence to show that part of it which is interested in anything else then increasing his fear of influence hence getting involved in Syria while I'm on the basis of getting rid of Islamic state that is the absolutely pivotal question and we are currently on the foreign affairs select committee doing a report on Anglo Russian relations.

And may I just say to you and we've been doing this for the last year the report will be published etcetera but but what the evidence that he would let you respond to on the critical evidence is this all policy seems to amount to a confrontation and sanctions and the sanctions aren't working interestingly Russian trade with America China Brazil and India is at record levels so once we are imposing sanctions on Russia by the way British companies have lost ten billion pounds a year as a result of the sanctions our international competitors the Americans the Chinese the Brazilians are continuing to trade sanctions will only work if implemented by all the countries in the world not just by western Europe is a you going to be out of step with your views now when we look at president Donald Trump who of course highs and signale.